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Is Elune a Naaru?
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Tiaana
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: Is Elune a Naaru? Reply with quote

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Q: Is Elune a naaru?

A: During a recent visit to Darnassus by Velen, he explained that the kaldorei's description of Elune, as well as the demonstrated powers of the goddess, matched his experiences with powerful naaru. He began to offer advice regarding how to commune with powerful naaru, but Tyrande thanked him for his opinion, then cordially requested that he refrain from making such outlandish claims when in Darnassus or in the presence of Elune's priesthood


From Creative Dev QA, it actually meshes well with what Tiaana has always believed about Elune being an aspect of the Light if the Draenei think she is a Naaru
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Caerinde
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Wwwwwhat? That's new. Makes sense in a way though, I suppose. Wonder if they'll twist the lore in some way because of this.
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Tiaana
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Caerinde wrote:
Wwwwwhat? That's new. Makes sense in a way though, I suppose. Wonder if they'll twist the lore in some way because of this.


Well its not saying she is, it's saying Velen (and one assumes the rest of the Draenei) think she is
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Enerdhil
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a peek at this.
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Caerinde
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice.. Thanks Nerd!
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Sejavictrix
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

E'lune
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Gandogar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Curses! Foiled by the Nerd. I was gonna post that. Razz
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Kili
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

So... Night Elf Paladins?
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Fenmapus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it certainly makes more sense than the "Elune is the only god in Azeroth" answer they gave back in the first Creative Dev QA.

Also, to answer the OP's question: yes. Elune is a Naaru. I mean, the guys who write the lore for the game basically admit that they consider Elune to be a naaru (just like how they admitted they think night elves are descendant from trolls).

To me it just looks like a smelly retcon again to work out the inconsistencies of the lore and an excuse for being lazy. I mean, why develop a whole new religion, complete with its own deities and uniqueness if you can just say "it's an aspect of an already existing one"? It just feels like they're taking away another thing that makes Azeroth a diverse world.

With all that said, I'm happy about the change, for the sole reason that I'll have yet another way to annoy those self-righteous, passive-aggressive night elf RPers of MG (that is to say, the only RPers).
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Kailania
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I must say that I would much prefer E(')lune being a Naaru over the alternative theory.

In the grand scheme of things: Wind Chimes > Tentacles

Unless, you know, you're into that kind of thing. I'm not judging.
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Enerdhil
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the writer of that part of the wiki page Razz "Given her pacific personality" - ORLY!
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Kailania
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenmapus wrote:
To me it just looks like a smelly retcon again to work out the inconsistencies of the lore and an excuse for being lazy. I mean, why develop a whole new religion, complete with its own deities and uniqueness if you can just say "it's an aspect of an already existing one"? It just feels like they're taking away another thing that makes Azeroth a diverse world.


There's a difference between creating a diverse world, and throwing in the kitchen sink when creating your universe.
As an amateur writer whose hobby it is to invent fantasy worlds, I can appreciate it when others who do the same are consistent within their own rules. Elune has always been an anomaly within existing WoW lore. Given what we KNOW about her, it would seem she appeared out of thin air between the war against the Old Gods and the War of the Ancients. If she came with the Titans, she should've been a Titan herself, and we'd (I'd) need a very good reason why she stayed. If she was here before the Titans, she would either be an Old God, or a powerful servant of the Old Gods (as anything of her level of power that opposed the Old Gods would've very likely been destroyed or assimilated). And everything points to Elune being not evil.
Other than the Titans, the only benevolent super-beings that we know of are the Naaru. Elune being a Naaru makes sense more than it doesn't. There is no other being on Azeroth like her. She's not a Troll Loa (she's too powerful to be just one), she's no elemental lord (as they're all accounted for). I suppose she *could* be the Elemental Lord of the Wilds, but the Wilds as fifth element is woefully underused beyond Lord of the Clans it might as well not exist.

I also think the term retcon is tossed about a bit too frequently by people when it comes to Warcraft lore.
Firstly, a retcon is a change to existing lore made so that new things can make sense. Elune being a Naaru would only be a retcon if it was previously established that Elune was not a Naaru. We never knew exactly what Elune was or wasn't, so her being a Naaru isn't a retcon but a case of Filling In The Blanks.
Secondly, retcons aren't inherently bad things. They are used by writers of an extensive series or a huge universe (Warcraft being both) to create a superior setting. Renaming the kingdom of Azeroth to Stormwind was a retcon. Nobody particularly minded. Retconning the Eredar corrupting Sargeras into Sargeras corrupting the Eredar allowed the Draenei backstory to be created. This went hand-in-hand with the retcon that changed the Frozen Throne Draenei into the Burning Crusade Lost Ones and Broken. The fact that Orcs were corrupted and humans didn't worship God were also retcons. Medivh used to be just an evil mage. The entire history of Warcraft is riddled with retcons and changes and new ideas tacked onto old ones. And I think it made the world richer.
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Fenmapus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference between an "amateur writer whose hobby is to invent fantasy worlds" and an "actual writer who gets paid to invent fantasy worlds" is consistency. When your job is to invent a living, breathing, interactive fantasy world, you better pay attention to details.

"Elune has always been an anomaly within existing WoW lore" <- see that, that's a rookie mistake. When you create something that you can't explain within the laws of the world you create, you're a bad writer.

I realize that the concept of Elune is "cool", that's probably why it got into the game in the first place. ("feral, amazon warrior bitches? You better believe they'll worship a hot warrior goddess!") And it worked awesomely with Warcraft 3, because all the lore you need for an RTS game is a half-baked reason to "go and kill those dudes".

But when suddenly you're dealing with an entire world, where you need to include details to not make it look cheap, you're in real trouble. Same happened with the Scarlet Crusade. ("So, they're like GOOD paladins, but they're ZEALOTS to the point of being EVIL. Also, they're manipulated by a demon." "WICKED bro! We got more coke?") Then people started wondering how Scarlet Crusaders can use HOLY magic while doing EVIL things.

I guess I'm just too picky, but I don't like my fantasy world, where I'm supposed to immerse myself into, to be a world that needs its "Blanks to be Filled in". I know it's too much to ask the WOW creative development team to have some sort of planning or frame before they write lore (god forbid they WORK for their money), but come on... reducing Elune to a naaru state... it just feels cheap in my opinion.

Also, the troll loa are troll intepretation of the Ancients...
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Kailania
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenmapus wrote:
"Elune has always been an anomaly within existing WoW lore" <- see that, that's a rookie mistake. When you create something that you can't explain within the laws of the world you create, you're a bad writer.


Agreed, and it looks like they're now fixing that problem.
Also, I think there's a difference between not being able to explain something and not wanting to explain something. Dragon Age, for example, is full of blanks from the fans' point of view, however, I'm fairly sure most, if not all, of those blanks are already filled in, at the very least in David Gaider's head. There's 100-page discussions going on on the forums, for example, on theories about aspects of the lore anyone who never bothered reading the Codices would never have heard about. Arlathan jumps to mind.

Quote:
I realize that the concept of Elune is "cool", that's probably why it got into the game in the first place. ("feral, amazon warrior bitches? You better believe they'll worship a hot warrior goddess!") And it worked awesomely with Warcraft 3, because all the lore you need for an RTS game is a half-baked reason to "go and kill those dudes".


I'm a sucker for good Moon Goddesses. Razz
Should also be said that Warcraft III had one of the best stories for an RTS at the time. (yo, Command and Conquer. Imma let you finish, but...)

Quote:
But when suddenly you're dealing with an entire world, where you need to include details to not make it look cheap, you're in real trouble. Same happened with the Scarlet Crusade. ("So, they're like GOOD paladins, but they're ZEALOTS to the point of being EVIL. Also, they're manipulated by a demon." "WICKED bro! We got more coke?") Then people started wondering how Scarlet Crusaders can use HOLY magic while doing EVIL things.


The Scarlet Crusade is consistent in that Nathrezim manipulate and corrupt mortals. It's what they do. It's why they're so valued as agents for the Legion.
As for why they're still able to use Light magic...
...I got nothing.

Quote:
I guess I'm just too picky, but I don't like my fantasy world, where I'm supposed to immerse myself into, to be a world that needs its "Blanks to be Filled in". I know it's too much to ask the WOW creative development team to have some sort of planning or frame before they write lore (god forbid they WORK for their money), but come on... reducing Elune to a naaru state... it just feels cheap in my opinion.


I will gladly admit that Metzen and co screwed up horribly when it came to lore in the past (hiring Knaak to write novels, for one, or using 'he went insane' as a way to turn lore characters into raid bosses). However, I think making Elune a Naaru is one of their more brilliant ideas. Especially since it fits.

Quote:
Also, the troll loa are troll intepretation of the Ancients...


I've always been under the impression that Ancients and Loa spirits are different entities.
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Fenmapus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Kailania wrote:
Also, I think there's a difference between not being able to explain something and not wanting to explain something. Dragon Age, for example, is full of blanks from the fans' point of view, however, I'm fairly sure most, if not all, of those blanks are already filled in, at the very least in David Gaider's head. There's 100-page discussions going on on the forums, for example, on theories about aspects of the lore anyone who never bothered reading the Codices would never have heard about. Arlathan jumps to mind.


Well, Gaider has the luxury of writing for an offline RPG, where it's not required to create a 100% detailed world for immersion. But you can't say that the lore in DA wasn't chock-full on every possible detail on that part of the setting the game takes place in. Add to that, it sold the illusion of Thedas being a diverse world, full of magic and wonder and different cultures.

I guess what bothers me most is that Gaider has already filled in all the blanks in his head before he and the other writers shipped out the world of Thedas (at least that's how it appears). I can totally see him having a 1000 pages manuscript on how he envisions Arlathan, for example.

Whereas in WoW the writing process seems more like hastily grabbed patches to fill in holes they never cared about when shipping out the final product. They just pop an idea in their heads, roll with it, ship it out and then worry about its impact on the general lore later. It really shows that the primary source of inspiration for lore are concept artists, not actual writers.

Making Elune a naaru is a decent idea (I wouldn't call it brilliant), but don't tell me that this was their whole plan all along, since Warcraft 3.

Quote:
I've always been under the impression that Ancients and Loa spirits are different entities.


Quote:
Q: What is the relationship between the Ancients of the Emerald Dream and the loa?

A: Troll druids visiting the Moonglade have been overheard calling the wisps who reside there loa, just as they refer to Goldrinn, Aviana, and the other returned Ancients as loa. Night elves and tauren have tried to counsel these trolls on "correct" druidic nomenclature, but the trolls thus far have been stuck in their ways.


That's what the Q&A says.
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